Going up/not going up

Here's a quote from the new book by the guardian columnist the secret footballer which I reckon might settle a an argument or two.

"the club felt the urgent need to fend off success. Owners do that sometimes. On a serious note, it is a little known fact that some clubs actually make decisions to avoid promotion because they are not well equipped to cope with the financial strains of going up. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but it’s absolutely true. You’ll find it extremely common practice in the Conference, and it happens with some League Two and League One clubs where the extra cost of policing isn’t covered by any great rise in tickets sold."

January will be a good indicator on judging that hypothesis. Keep, sell, strengthen, weaken, spend on team, bolster pension? all will be revealed.

With regards to Conference and non league clubs, very often promotion entails mandatory stadium improvements. As it says, the cost of wages go up, the cost of policing goes up, but the attendances are the same as usual.

I have known of this in the non leagues but I'm pretty sure a club of Argyle's size wouldn't be affected by it. By the end of the season I expect attendances will have grown, let alone in the league above.

Edited out....wrong thread

Hugh Watt wrote:

Here's a quote from the new book by the guardian columnist the secret footballer which I reckon might settle a an argument or two.

"the club felt the urgent need to fend off success. Owners do that sometimes. On a serious note, it is a little known fact that some clubs actually make decisions to avoid promotion because they are not well equipped to cope with the financial strains of going up. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but it’s absolutely true. You’ll find it extremely common practice in the Conference, and it happens with some League Two and League One clubs where the extra cost of policing isn’t covered by any great rise in tickets sold."

To be a fact it must have some substance and examples. So ... examples ??

tigertony wrote:

Hugh Watt wrote:

Here's a quote from the new book by the guardian columnist the secret footballer which I reckon might settle a an argument or two.

"the club felt the urgent need to fend off success. Owners do that sometimes. On a serious note, it is a little known fact that some clubs actually make decisions to avoid promotion because they are not well equipped to cope with the financial strains of going up. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but it’s absolutely true. You’ll find it extremely common practice in the Conference, and it happens with some League Two and League One clubs where the extra cost of policing isn’t covered by any great rise in tickets sold."

To be a fact it must have some substance and examples. So ... examples ??

Plymouth Argyle-1930's-1950's-1960's-1970's-1980's-2000's.

Certainly there were members of my family - my Grandfather in particular, who always held the view that when Argyle finished second for about 5 years running in the 50's, there was a particular policy of avoiding promotion because the Board of the time weren't equipped to cope with a rise up the leagues.

Homeslice wrote:

Certainly there were members of my family - my Grandfather in particular, who always held the view that when Argyle finished second for about 5 years running in the 50's, there was a particular policy of avoiding promotion because the Board of the time weren't equipped to cope with a rise up the leagues.

A lot of people of that generation said the same thing.Never believed it,used to think "silly old buggers" when it was said,just like i did with my grandfather when he used to say that we'd wake up one morning and Mariner would be gone.We all know how that turned out and what the consequences were for the next 10 years,just as we're still paying for the pusillanimous cop out by the board in 2007.Remember getting a bit excited when Holloway was in charge and saying to a golf playing mate, who is interested in football generally but not an Argyle fan, that this could be the year-"it'll be too hot for Argyle to handle" was his verdict.Yeah well..........

."....owned by unrealistic people. All such people care about is finding the best club with the most assets, and the best planning permission for the best price."

Another gem

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Homeslice wrote:

Certainly there were members of my family - my Grandfather in particular, who always held the view that when Argyle finished second for about 5 years running in the 50's, there was a particular policy of avoiding promotion because the Board of the time weren't equipped to cope with a rise up the leagues.

I don't know what charts your family members were using Homeslice to assess Argyles finishing position in the 1950's.....certainly not any that I can remember.....I know as I get older the memory can play tricks on you.... but you have to go back to the period 1922/27 when only one team were promoted to find that Argyle came second six consecutive years (even before my time).......twice on goal difference.

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Quote Greenskin : 'pusillanimous' you educated wanker you !

Tringreen wrote:

Quote Greenskin : 'pusillanimous'  you educated wanker you !

Sorry,got it mixed up with Pulis and his animus.Or something like that.

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Les Miserable wrote:

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Naive = Green or Oblivious

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

He would have walked away had any unsecured creditor told him to stick his 0.6 p in the pound offer or the council didnt buy the ground.

There are many examples in life of big fish in small ponds. To think that doesn't apply to a few football clubs is preposterous. Owners run football clubs for all sorts of reasons.

Les Miserable wrote:

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Where did I say that Brent "rescued" Argyle for any reason at all......I'm just saying that this discussion would never be taking place now....if he had just walked away at the beginning.....whatever his reasons where it has kept Argyle afloat with some hope of a future....beyond being a Sunday morning league team on a local Rec somewhere near you....just a fact....make of it whatever you will.

AstiSpumante wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Naive = Green or Oblivious

Green = Healthy or Flourishing........38pts suggests somethings going right....or is that being too positive for you.

zyph wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Naive = Green or Oblivious

Green = Healthy or Flourishing........38pts suggests somethings going right....or is that being too positive for you.

So what's your take on the longer term then? IYHO, is the future of Argyle "healthy and flourishing" bearing in mind that nine tenths of piss all seems to have been done to enhance the infrastructure of the club or to attract the further financing that the club will need if it is to progress up the leagues? Or is it enough to say 38 points and sod the long term, just as people did in all those other false dawns in the past?

Surely if Brent wishes to sell up in the foreseeable future then getting promotion from Two, and up to League One, will be a more attractive proposition to potential buyers ?.

Promotion is a 'must do' this seaaon.

Greenskin wrote:

zyph wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Naive = Green or Oblivious

Green = Healthy or Flourishing........38pts suggests somethings going right....or is that being too positive for you.

So what's your take on the longer term then? IYHO, is the future of Argyle "healthy and flourishing" bearing in mind that nine tenths of piss all seems to have been done to enhance the infrastructure of the club or to attract the further financing that the club will need if it is to progress up the leagues? Or is it enough to say 38 points and sod the long term, just as people did in all those other false dawns in the past?

Green = Healthy or Flourishing....that was for Asti to comment on.

All that I will say Greenskin is that there are 23 other clubs in Div2 that would love to have 38pts come mid November.

zyph wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

zyph wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

zyph wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

On current footballing form there is a high potential we will gain promotion. However being football, factor in a form 'wobble' a some point, injuries and the vultures circling in the January window, nothing is at all certain.
The biggest concern for me is Brent's supposed finacial support. Already Adams has moaned re not being able to afford the Carlisle player. Again no leadership from Brent or words of ambition re 'going for promotion', he is clearly happy to sit back and let whatever happens.
The guy is uselss as an owner and ultimately will undermine the progress of the club. Interesting discussion during the commentary btween Sparksy and Errington to fans disquiet about financing any promo push.
COYG
BRENT OUT.

Your right in saying that Brent could undermine the progress of the club.....he had a good chance of doing that when they where in administration.....he could of just walked away and left PAFC to sink without trace ..........that would of of been a case of sitting back and let whatever happens wouldn't it ?

Zyph, if you truly believe that Brent 'rescued' Argyle for footballing reasons rather than what he perceived to be an easy money making development opportunity you are extremely naive.

Naive = Green or Oblivious

Green = Healthy or Flourishing........38pts suggests somethings going right....or is that being too positive for you.

So what's your take on the longer term then? IYHO, is the future of Argyle "healthy and flourishing" bearing in mind that nine tenths of piss all seems to have been done to enhance the infrastructure of the club or to attract the further financing that the club will need if it is to progress up the leagues? Or is it enough to say 38 points and sod the long term, just as people did in all those other false dawns in the past?

Green = Healthy or Flourishing....that was for Asti to comment on.

All that I will say Greenskin is that there are 23 other clubs in Div2 that would love to have 38pts come mid November.

Not much of an answer to be honest.

In Jimmy's case, he probably doesn't mind if the club go up or not. The budget will be the budget, and that will be based on the break even/small profit model wherever the club are. Even he must now have a bit of a clue as to what crowds to budget for.

I wonder if Brent has actually worked out yet that when Ridsdale told him to budget for an 8000 average attendance in the first year (what a mug ), he was actually crowbarring a good 300K+ extra dosh/repayment for someone from the overall settlement price.